di: Zach Groshell's interview of U of Oregon Professor Doug Carnine, DI Program Author

[Kurt Engelmann]

DI Listmates:

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https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/doug-carnine-evidence-education-zach-groshell-podcast-kurt-engelmann-nhukc

*Doug Carnine on evidence in education with Zach Groshell*

*for the **Progressively Incorrect*
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__educationrickshaw.com_category_progressively-2Dincorrect_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=pT35JaYfIfjkFEpBJIQh0Q&m=BD6gAllnT7pnf2GfngrXJGPkjVcSn3RQIlB8Cc2eSoY7fvJ3aORHh1Cpv6nxPVbD&s=6WgyZu2Ouf9geQBANSam1Kt89DgwO1jKHD1cr0i-jDg&e=>*
podcast*



Here’s an important interview for those of you who are interested in “big
picture” issues in the field of education.  Zach Groshell interviewed Doug
Carnine for an episode of his podcast Progressively Incorrect
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__educationrickshaw.com_category_progressively-2Dincorrect_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=pT35JaYfIfjkFEpBJIQh0Q&m=BD6gAllnT7pnf2GfngrXJGPkjVcSn3RQIlB8Cc2eSoY7fvJ3aORHh1Cpv6nxPVbD&s=6WgyZu2Ouf9geQBANSam1Kt89DgwO1jKHD1cr0i-jDg&e=>
.  Access the interview at
https://educationrickshaw.com/2025/02/04/s4e20-doug-carnine-on-advocacy-for-evidence/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__educationrickshaw.com_2025_02_04_s4e20-2Ddoug-2Dcarnine-2Don-2Dadvocacy-2Dfor-2Devidence_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=pT35JaYfIfjkFEpBJIQh0Q&m=BD6gAllnT7pnf2GfngrXJGPkjVcSn3RQIlB8Cc2eSoY7fvJ3aORHh1Cpv6nxPVbD&s=bf4IkcEcau55h8AF2NbpdYQb4tD-Kyz_oiG4Kv6lw7I&e=>
.



As well as being a Professor Emeritus of Education at the University of
Oregon, Doug is an important figure in Direct Instruction (DI).  Along with
my father, he co-authored several Direct Instruction math instructional
programs (*DISTAR Arithmetic*, *Connecting Math Concepts*, and *Corrective
Mathematics*) as well as the seminal work on the design of DI, *Theory of
Instruction*.  With others, he authored the university-level texts *Direct
Instruction Reading* and *Direct Instruction Mathematics* – two great
resources!



Although Doug has been a key figure in DI, his interview with Zach touches
on DI only briefly.  He mentions Project Follow Through
https://www.nifdi.org/what-is-di/project-follow-through.html and the
fantastic implementation at Wesley Elementary School in Houston in the
1980s with an emphasis on the class taught by Lorraine Killion in
particular.  (See pp. 18-19 of the DI News at
https://www.nifdi.org/research/esp-archive/volume-1/383-di-news-vol-1-no-3-spring-1982/file.html
for a brief article on the school’s success.)  Instead of sticking to DI,
Doug addresses “big picture” issues in education and the need to ensure
that all institutions that directly or indirectly affect student outcomes –
teacher preparation programs, state departments of education, school
districts, etc. – use effective, evidence-based practices.  Doug discusses
his latest project, the Evidence Advocacy Center
https://evidenceadvocacycenter.org, through which he’s bringing together
groups of experts to help form a comprehensive approach to recommending
best practices in all parts of the education pipeline.



At around minute 21 of the interview, Doug provides an important definition
of research-based evidence.  Not only should it include high-quality,
formal research studies, such as studies using randomly controlled
assignment, but it should also include “schools, districts, and states that
produce unexpectedly high achievement…what is working in real-world
settings.”  Studies employing randomized control trials (RCTs) are still
the gold standard and should be appreciated as such.  However, there are
other forms of evidence that should be taken into consideration when
identifying best practices, according to Doug.



Using real-world evidence is important and necessary to fill the gaps in
the “gold standard” research base because of the difficulty and cost of
randomized control trial studies.  For instance, conducting RCTs of
comprehensive school reform models is prohibitively expensive to do at a
sufficient scale for significant results.  So, the sparse coverage of RCTs
calls for careful consideration of “real-world” evidence, which can help
direct the attention of researchers and practitioners to variables relevant
to students’ success.



Doug doesn’t go into detail on how to select examples of “real-world”
evidence, but, presumably, they would be instances of outstanding student
success – success that is highly unlikely to have occurred by chance.  As
an example, the “show-off” session my father conducted in 1966 with
Kindergarten-aged children from high-poverty backgrounds who had attended
the Bereiter-Engelmann Preschool (
https://www.nifdi.org/videos/siegfried-zig-engelmann.html#Pre) should
indicate to anyone who sees it that the DI approach can lead to tremendous
growth in student achievement…if it is implemented with fidelity!

KE

Kurt E. Engelmann, Ph.D., President
The National Institute for Direct Instruction (NIFDI)

*
<https://www.nifdi.org/training-events/events-calendar/training-event/ca1-2023.html>
*

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*Direct Instruction: A Practitioner’s Handbook* (2024),

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https://tinyurl.com/direct-instruction-handbook

*
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