<div dir="ltr"><div>DI Listmates:</div><div><a href="goog_932897385"><br></a></div><div><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/doug-carnine-evidence-education-zach-groshell-podcast-kurt-engelmann-nhukc">https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/doug-carnine-evidence-education-zach-groshell-podcast-kurt-engelmann-nhukc</a></div><div><br></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>Doug Carnine on
evidence in education with Zach Groshell<span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>for the </b><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__educationrickshaw.com_category_progressively-2Dincorrect_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=pT35JaYfIfjkFEpBJIQh0Q&m=BD6gAllnT7pnf2GfngrXJGPkjVcSn3RQIlB8Cc2eSoY7fvJ3aORHh1Cpv6nxPVbD&s=6WgyZu2Ouf9geQBANSam1Kt89DgwO1jKHD1cr0i-jDg&e=" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(5,99,193);text-decoration:underline"><b>Progressively Incorrect</b></a><b> podcast<span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Here’s an important interview for those of you who are
interested in “big picture” issues in the field of education.<span> </span>Zach Groshell interviewed Doug Carnine for an
episode of his podcast <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__educationrickshaw.com_category_progressively-2Dincorrect_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=pT35JaYfIfjkFEpBJIQh0Q&m=BD6gAllnT7pnf2GfngrXJGPkjVcSn3RQIlB8Cc2eSoY7fvJ3aORHh1Cpv6nxPVbD&s=6WgyZu2Ouf9geQBANSam1Kt89DgwO1jKHD1cr0i-jDg&e=" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(5,99,193);text-decoration:underline">Progressively Incorrect</a>.<span>
</span>Access the interview at <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__educationrickshaw.com_2025_02_04_s4e20-2Ddoug-2Dcarnine-2Don-2Dadvocacy-2Dfor-2Devidence_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=pT35JaYfIfjkFEpBJIQh0Q&m=BD6gAllnT7pnf2GfngrXJGPkjVcSn3RQIlB8Cc2eSoY7fvJ3aORHh1Cpv6nxPVbD&s=bf4IkcEcau55h8AF2NbpdYQb4tD-Kyz_oiG4Kv6lw7I&e=" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(5,99,193);text-decoration:underline">https://educationrickshaw.com/2025/02/04/s4e20-doug-carnine-on-advocacy-for-evidence/</a>.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">As well as being a Professor Emeritus of Education at the
University of Oregon, Doug is an important figure in Direct Instruction
(DI).<span> </span>Along with my father, he co-authored
several Direct Instruction math instructional programs (<i>DISTAR Arithmetic</i>,
<i>Connecting Math Concepts</i>, and <i>Corrective Mathematics</i>) as well as
the seminal work on the design of DI, <i>Theory of Instruction</i>.<span> </span>With others, he authored the university-level
texts <i>Direct Instruction Reading</i> and <i>Direct Instruction Mathematics</i>
– two great resources!<span> </span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Although Doug has been a key figure in DI, his interview with
Zach touches on DI only briefly.<span> </span>He
mentions Project Follow Through <a href="https://www.nifdi.org/what-is-di/project-follow-through.html" style="color:rgb(5,99,193);text-decoration:underline">https://www.nifdi.org/what-is-di/project-follow-through.html</a>
and the fantastic implementation at Wesley Elementary School in Houston in the
1980s with an emphasis on the class taught by Lorraine Killion in particular.<span> </span>(See pp. 18-19 of the DI News at <a href="https://www.nifdi.org/research/esp-archive/volume-1/383-di-news-vol-1-no-3-spring-1982/file.html" style="color:rgb(5,99,193);text-decoration:underline">https://www.nifdi.org/research/esp-archive/volume-1/383-di-news-vol-1-no-3-spring-1982/file.html</a>
for a brief article on the school’s success.)<span>
</span>Instead of sticking to DI, Doug addresses “big picture” issues in
education and the need to ensure that all institutions that directly or
indirectly affect student outcomes – teacher preparation programs, state
departments of education, school districts, etc. – use effective,
evidence-based practices.<span> </span>Doug discusses
his latest project, the Evidence Advocacy Center <a href="https://evidenceadvocacycenter.org" style="color:rgb(5,99,193);text-decoration:underline">https://evidenceadvocacycenter.org</a>,
through which he’s bringing together groups of experts to help form a
comprehensive approach to recommending best practices in all parts of the
education pipeline.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">At around minute 21 of the interview, Doug provides an
important definition of research-based evidence.<span> </span>Not only should it include high-quality, formal
research studies, such as studies using randomly controlled assignment, but it
should also include “schools, districts, and states that produce unexpectedly
high achievement…what is working in real-world settings.”<span> </span>Studies employing randomized control trials (RCTs)
are still the gold standard and should be appreciated as such.<span> </span>However, there are other forms of evidence
that should be taken into consideration when identifying best practices,
according to Doug.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Using real-world evidence is important and necessary to fill
the gaps in the “gold standard” research base because of the difficulty and cost
of randomized control trial studies.<span> </span>For
instance, conducting RCTs of comprehensive school reform models is
prohibitively expensive to do at a sufficient scale for significant results.<span> </span>So, the sparse coverage of RCTs calls for
careful consideration of “real-world” evidence, which can help direct the
attention of researchers and practitioners to variables relevant to students’
success.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Doug doesn’t go into detail on how to select examples of
“real-world” evidence, but, presumably, they would be instances of outstanding
student success – success that is highly unlikely to have occurred by
chance.<span> </span>As an example, the “show-off”
session my father conducted in 1966 with Kindergarten-aged children from
high-poverty backgrounds who had attended the Bereiter-Engelmann Preschool (<a href="https://www.nifdi.org/videos/siegfried-zig-engelmann.html#Pre" style="color:rgb(5,99,193);text-decoration:underline">https://www.nifdi.org/videos/siegfried-zig-engelmann.html#Pre</a>)
should indicate to anyone who sees it that the DI approach can lead to
tremendous growth in student achievement…if it is implemented with fidelity!<span></span></p>
<br></div><div>KE</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">
<font color="#888888"><pre><span style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:x-small">Kurt E. Engelmann, Ph.D., President
The National Institute for Direct Instruction (NIFDI)</span></pre></font><p class="MsoNormal"></p><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><a href="https://www.nifdi.org/training-events/events-calendar/training-event/ca1-2023.html" target="_blank"></a>
</span></i><font color="#888888"><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font color="#888888"><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><div><pre><font color="#888888"><font size="1"><a href="tel:877-485-1973" value="+18774851973" target="_blank"><font color="#888888"><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font color="#888888"><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="color:black"><hr width="100%" size="2" align="center"></span></div></div></div></div></div></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></a></font></font></pre></div></div></div></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2">Get the most comprehensive guide to implementing DI available
– </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><b><i>Direct Instruction: A Practitioner’s Handbook</i></b>
(2024), </font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2">published by John Catt/Hodder Education</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><a href="https://tinyurl.com/direct-instruction-handbook" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/direct-instruction-handbook</a></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"></p><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><a href="https://www.nifdi.org/training-events/events-calendar/training-event/ca1-2023.html" target="_blank"></a>
</span></i><font color="#888888"><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font color="#888888"><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><div><pre><font color="#888888"><font size="1"><a href="tel:877-485-1973" value="+18774851973" target="_blank"><font color="#888888"><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font color="#888888"><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="color:black"><hr width="100%" size="2" align="center"></span></div></div></div></div></div></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></a></font><b><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></b></font></pre><p></p></div></div></div></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>