di: di Digest, Vol 69, Issue 10

[randi saulter]

Just a reminder that we teach often students to read while they are still
working out developmental and other articulation issues.  Many students
continue to struggle with more difficult phonemes /l, r, s/ until they are
7 or 8 years old.  We wouldn't want to delay reading instruction to that
extent.

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 9:37 AM, Kathy Pusztavari <k at kathyandcalvin.com>
wrote:

> One of the early things to teach in the world of autism is echoics - which
> sort of falls under speech.  My son had apraxia until 5 so we used the
> Kaufman Apraxia Kit to help with that. Then 2 years later tackled reading.
> I can’t imagine having articulation problems and teaching reading at the
> same time but then, I’m not a professional.
>
> - Kathy
>
> On Feb 16, 2018, at 3:53 PM, Aimee Taylor <littlegreen at ymail.com> wrote:
>
> @rocco - I'm neither Kathy nor an educator nor a professional but I do
> know that as a parent there is a learning channel (input-output) that is
> addressed in precision teaching approaches to reading that is largely
> ignored in other reading instruction including DI to my knowledge. It is
> neither see-say as in decoding oral reading out loud nor think-say as in
> expressive language aka speech but is hear-say or hear-think-say otherwise
> known as auditory analysis. Explicit learning in auditory analysis via
> intensive one in one instruction with a precision teacher 1 hour 3x per
> week for about a quarter to half a year was necessary for my child to
> improve her word attack skills when all other component skills were
> fluently in place aka letter sound correspondence, blending, decoding,
> digraphs, etc. it was a tough skill to master and we did it in much later
> grade than you indicated but the hard work paid off in major reading leap
> forward in fluency. See http://www.haughtonlearningcenter.com/
> phonemics_subpage.html
> There is no indication that the child you describe would struggle with
> such a set of tasks but you don't know until it has been examined in the
> child and it's not clear to me that this is commonly assessed in school (we
> homeschool). Fluency is not just for reading or for speech. It is for
> thinking (aka word finding - colors, shapes, categories, materials, see
> also DI language for learning, language for thinking, and reasoning and
> writing, and Anita archer's rewards writing word bank. See also core
> language components in reading comprehension https://youtu.be/sF43aQaj3OY)
> but also is for component skills too - sound ID/letter correspondence and
> auditory analysis. Fluency has a very narrow definition in school/speech
> circles and a very broad definition in precision teaching circles (hint:
> all behavior has a level of measured rate or fluency). Just something to
> keep in mind if you hit a wall.
>
> Best wishes for every success, Aimee Taylor
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 15, 2018, at 3:15 PM, ROCCO NOCERA <rlnocera01 at msn.com> wrote:
>
> @kathy-what do I do with my kindergartener who has “phonological
> processing disorder” and is already reading? He is sometimes unintelligible
> and I am concerned that his private talk may not be advancing as I see no
> progress with his public talk. He needs to read and also pronounce. I want
> progress on both but his decoding isn’t there yet. The school keeps moving
> him ahead in reading because he makes progress. Do you think more speech
> alone is going to help him pronounce the word he reads?
>
> His school wants to d/c speech because they say he’s fine. It’s total BS.
> I am having him privately assessed and will go to mediation if I have to.
>
> If you want this off list, please reply to me. I am a novice listserv
> person and might slip up from time to time.
>
> Ty,
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 15, 2018, at 1:48 PM, "di-request at lists.uoregon.edu" <
> di-request at lists.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>
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>  1. Re:  di Digest, Vol 69, Issue 7 (Kathy Pusztavari)
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 10:54:21 -0800
>
> From: Kathy Pusztavari <k at kathyandcalvin.com>
>
> To: "di at lists.uoregon.edu" <di at lists.uoregon.edu>
>
> Subject: Re: di: di Digest, Vol 69, Issue 7
>
> Message-ID: <2D64BFB3-1A21-4ADD-9B09-3B1B829F8F4B at kathyandcalvin.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> I would think you would work out most artic problems before working on
> reading out loud.
>
>
> - Kathy
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2018, at 10:24 AM, randi saulter <itsrandi17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> As a former speech/language pathologist, I am wondering if you can clarify
> what you mean by this.  I am a little worried that the message is going to
> confuse people.  There should be NO pause in continuous blending whether or
> not students have articulation difficulties.  Continuous blending for
> reading instruction is not the appropriate environment for working on
> articulation goals.  During reading instruction and continuous blending
> exercises it would be best practice to accept as correct the student's
> attempt at approximating the correct articulation while holding the student
> responsible for NO pauses during that exercise.  Work on producing correct
> articulation of sounds would best be left to discrete work on just that in
> a setting outside of reading instruction.
>
>
> Later, after a student has advanced through the use of continuous blending
> or during a different part of reading instruction when students are reading
> without audible blending, using a correction procedure (the one specified
> for the exercise), a teacher could model the correct articulation of a word
> for the student and have the student repeat the word, but again, accepting
> the closest possible approximation of the sounds should be accepted as
> correct "reading."
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 2:42 PM, ROCCO NOCERA <rlnocera01 at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Pauses are good for kids in need of improved articulation. Pauses happen
> between syllables and are in the middle of words. Middle syllables and
> consonant clusters get mispronounced or deleted, even by typically
> developing readers. To pause is to ensure they say the whole word. The ?say
> it fast? prompt is there so they can practice without the little breath in
> between.
>
>
> Kindly,
>
>
> Rocco Nocera
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2018, at 5:02 PM, "di-request at lists.uoregon.edu" <
> di-request at lists.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>
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>
> 1.  Fwd: Response to  Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1 (Charles Arthur)
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:23:23 -0800
>
> From: Charles Arthur <carthur at teleport.com>
>
> To: di at lists.uoregon.edu
>
> Cc: di-owner at lists.uoregon.edu
>
> Subject: di: Fwd: Response to  Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1
>
> Message-ID: <D6A8F4AB-16FB-4FFC-BBEF-821D685D45D0 at teleport.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> Response to Joe Kuhn.
>
>
> Joe, thanks for the comments. Really good question.  ?I'm wondering if
> there's research that shows
>
> sounding it out, out-loud, is more effective than sounding it out 'in your
>
> head'?.  What?s really happening when we read silently and why is it
> important to practice out loud?  How do we know that it works better to do
> it out loud?
>
>
> As I understand it, in my recent readings, in retirement, the going theory
> on how words are identified, quickly and easily, is referred to as
> phonological vs. visual.  I?ve written a little on this and posted my
> feeble attempt on my website:  arthurreadingworkshop.com <
> http://arthurreadingworkshop.com/>.  and conduct an occasional seminar on
> the topic of The Science of Reading Words. (all of which, in my view,
> confirms DI teaching.)
>
>
> How this works when reading is silent is a bit mysterious.   Seems like I
> remember the DI answer to the importance of doing a lot of out-loud reading
> and responding during instruction was that this is the way a teacher can
> know what the student is learning.  It gives the teacher feedback.  (a
> reasonable and practical point, but one that dodges the question somewhat)
>
>
> Yet, even from the DI point of view, there seems to be more to it than
> that.  Practically everything taught in DI programs involves oral
> responding.  It seems clear that it not only gives the teacher feedback but
> also helps learning and memory.  It?s a kind of oral rehearsal.
>
>
> My readings on the phonological theories of reading words indicate a
> reinforcement of this with tons of research, (see my website) but also goes
> even further than that. The argument goes: because reading is
> phonologically based (in speech), it is most effectively learned orally.  A
> nice quote from Mark Seidenberg. ?We read with our eyes, but the starting
> point for reading is speech.?(Language at the Speed of Sound. Chapter two,
> first sentence.)  The idea is that we can read because we can speak. All a
> nice reinforcement for RM K. and beyond.
>
>
> To me, this is a fascinating subject which gives DI reading added support
> and confirmation.  One of the two or three most fascinating aspects of RM K
> is how the overt act of sounding out is gradually transferred to the
> internal covert act, without switching to out-right memorization.
>   Remember, the red box in lesson 65 for ?thinking? the sounds before
> saying the words?  We like to teach ?thinking the sounds? rather than
> ?figuring it out? in the script, a miner but effective modification.  This
> process eventually progresses up to lesson 108 with no more sounding out.
> Then of course is your question:  what kind of phonological process is the
> reader using once the sounding out is dropped?  Where does al that learned
> decoding go?  The phonological theory covers this as well.  Look it up.
>  (Isabelle Liberman, Charles Perfetti,  Linnea Ehri,  Kieth Stanovich, Mark
> Seidenberg, Sally Shaywitz, among others)
>
>
> In my readings, I?m impressed with the neurological argument that this
> process actually strengthens the part of the brain that handles speech and
> reading, especially for those with some weakness that shows up in fMRIs.
>   That part of the brain actually becomes more active during these
> activities, even if only thinking about them, shows up in fMRI studies.
>
>
> In teaching this way in kindergarten, we believe that we are preventing
> the neurological condition of dyslexia. After teaching hundreds of kids
> from kindergarten on up, over 15 years, in six small schools, we?ve had
> very few that have persistent decoding problems. So it is a dysteachia
> thing in the final analysis, in spite of its neurological base.
>
>
> But, Joe, it would be neat to have a little more research on this vital
> point.  Just like more research on ?say the sounds without stopping? would
> be nice.  It may dispel the going research on saying the sounds with
> pauses, my personal pet peeve.
>
>
>
>
> Charles Arthur
>
> Early Child Literacy Consultant
>
> carthur at teleport.com
>
> The most effective reading programs  carefully structure instruction
> around mastery of small learning increments that leads to student
> proficiency of advanced applications and higher student self-esteem.
>
> 971-544-7341 <(971)%20544-7341>
>
>
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/Arthur-Reading-Workshop-311701916000900/>
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/Arthur-Reading-Workshop-311701916000900/>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
> From: di-request at lists.uoregon.edu
>
> Subject: di Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1
>
> Date: February 3, 2018 at 12:59:05 PM PST
>
> To: di at lists.uoregon.edu
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> Reply-To: di at lists.uoregon.edu
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> Today's Topics:
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>
> 1. Re:  Charles Arthur also responds to the Most Comprehensive
>
>   Meta-Analysis article. (Joe Kuhn)
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 06:54:44 -0600
>
> From: Joe Kuhn <joemkuhn at gmail.com>
>
> To: Charles Arthur <carthur at teleport.com>
>
> Cc: DI LIST U of O <di at lists.uoregon.edu>
>
> Subject: Re: di: Charles Arthur also responds to the Most
>
>  Comprehensive Meta-Analysis article.
>
> Message-ID:
>
>  <CAL+L3Kki_YBd-UGAJ0zJSCd1Xvke8hq0oEVSvqxyDiKvmy+roA at mail.gmail.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> Charles, along your lines, I'm wondering if there's research that shows
>
> sounding it out, out-loud, is more effective than sounding it out 'in your
>
> head'.  Of course we know the answer to the question, but is there research
>
> on this?
>
>
> BTW, love the detail on your web site.  Wow!
>
>
> Joe
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:03 PM, Charles Arthur <carthur at teleport.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> I?m also very anxious to see the full article on the meta-analysis of DI
>
> curricula.  and PRESTO.  here it is.  Thanks Jerry
>
>
> I?m particularly interested seeing if it touches on a vital concern of
>
> mine in teaching phonemic awareness and decoding in Reading Mastery K.  As
>
> most readers on this listserve know, teaching these two kinds of skills
>
> hinges on one technique:  Say the sound without stopping, with and without
>
> letters.  I?ve just posted a short review on this on my website:
>
> arthurreadingworkshop.com. (on the Seminar page) It?s entitled, WHERE
>
> RESEARCH HAS FAILED IN THE STUDY OF TEACHING BEGINNING PHONEMIC AWARENESS
>
> AND DECODING.   http://arthurreadingworkshop.com/seminar/
>
>
> The vast amount of research on this topic has affirmed the importance of
>
> phonemic awareness in teaching beginning reading, something Zig anticipated
>
> before the wave of research studies started.  The failure has been in
>
> researching how phonemic awareness, followed up with decoding, can be most
>
> effectively and efficiently taught, with Zig?s technique of Say the sounds
>
> without Stopping.  I can only find two published research studies on this.
>
> (Weisberg 1989, 1993, copies available on request)
>
>
> All the rest of the studies on this topic support saying the sounds and
>
> decoding *with pauses*.  One could almost claim that the DI,  RM K method
>
> is not research based.    In all of this Meta-Analysis, why has research on
>
> this vital piece of teaching beginning reading been omitted?  Or has Jean
>
> and Tim found some other studies? Under these circumstances, how can it be
>
> considered research based?
>
>
> Please read what I?ve posted, and let me know what you think.
>
> Charles Arthur
>
> Early Child Literacy Consultant
>
> carthur at teleport.com
>
> The most effective reading programs  carefully structure instruction
>
> around mastery of small learning increments that leads to
>
> student proficiency of advanced applications and higher student
> self-esteem.
>
> 971-544-7341 <(971)%20544-7341> <(971)%20544-7341>
>
>
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/Arthur-Reading-Workshop-311701916000900/>
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/Arthur-Reading-Workshop-311701916000900/>
>
>
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